Cylinder head, camshaft, valve train (except hydraulic lifters & push-rod tubes).

[J.Rosenberg]

Hydraulic lifter questions have been moved to a new topic -- "Hydraulic lifters". Mechanical vavle questions remain here.

Push Rod tubes now have their own topic.

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred from other posts to consolidate similar topics.

'84 Vanagon w/ bent pushrod

rcvigu Junior Member # 40 posted 06-28-2000 10:05 AM

I recently did a head job to my '84 Westy and about 300 miles after I heard what sounded like a bad lifter and oil was leaking out from the pushrod area. After removing the valve cover and rocker arm I discovered that the pushrod was bent. I think this was due to not properly seating the pushrod tube in the hydraulic lifter when I did the heads. I would think at this point I need to obviously replace the bad pushrod and the lifter. Should I also replace the remaining pushrods and lifters at this time? Another question would be why would there be no loss in power?

Thanks in advance for any information/suggestions.

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 06-28-2000 06:38 PM

It is not necessary to replace all lifters for one defective one. Possible you didn't get one bled. Replace the defective one, and pushrod (Bentley 15.22-15.24). I'd suggest a new pushrod tube, O-rings and valve cover gasket while it's open. Since you have bent a pushrod, examine your rocker arm very carefully for damage.

rcvigu Junior Member # 40 posted 06-29-2000 12:05 PM

Thanks for responding to my original posting!
I replaced the damaged lifter and pushrod and after completion had difficulty keeping the motor idling and when I drove the van it had lost considerable power. The rod and lifter changed was for the #1 cylinder (passenger side closest to back seat) and it seems as if the #1 is not firing correctly, probably a good reason why the van lost power. When I originally assembled the rods after the head job I never touched the lifters (i.e. no bleeding) and also I didn’t adjust the valve lifters as mentioned in the Bentley 15.24. I believe I didn’t have problems first time around (leaving out the misaligned pushrod) because I put all the pushrods back in their original location. Now there is a new lifter, not bled, and I’m using a good used pushrod from the local VW machine shop. At this point can I just make the value lifter adjustment? Per the Bentley 15.24 it suggests adjusting the valve lifters if the rocker shaft has been removed. Do I need to bleed the new lifter? Will I now have to make an adjustment to the other side as well? Also would the valve lifters not adjusted correctly cause the symptoms described previously?

Thanks again,

Rob

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 06-29-2000 04:19 PM

You only have to bleed a lifter if it flunks the test (Bentley 15.23). The reason they suggest readjusting all valves if the rocker arm shaft is removed is that the shaft, and thus rockers, may no longer be in its old bedded position. Hydraulic lifters absorb some of the adjustment variation, but have limits that need to be retained -- i.e. don't use up all the lifter's adjustment ability because the valve isn't adjusted right.

A lifter that has too much play will not allow full valve opening, thus loss of power and rough running. I lifter without enough will not allow the valves to close, again rough running, though perhaps not as much loss of power. Both conditions can bend a pushrod.

You do not have to do both sides of an engine for adjustments or repairs done on one side. However if you didn't do it the first time, you probably should go back and do a recheck.

Blowing oil out exhaust, not smoking though.

herbpowell Junior Member # 90 posted 06-12-2000 09:27 PM

I'm almost afraid to post after reading the rules but, here goes. I have a 75 westy with the factory motor. It have duel webers. The motor runs smooth as silk, it has good power and starts up easily. It does NOT smoke but, it blows droplets of oil out of the exhaust. I lose considerable amounts of oil this way. I know this sounds crazy you would think anything coming out of the exhaust would be burned. But it is not it is kind of vaporized. The oil ends up all over the back of my bus because of the air currents created by the bus. Is it time for new rings? I hope it is some simple fix, but I fear not. I am open to any thoughts. herb

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 06-12-2000 10:13 PM

Usually oil into the exhaust without any getting into the combustion chambers to burn is a result of valve seal leakage. The oil is leaking by the seal into the system while the valve is closed and then getting blown out by the exhausting cylinder gases.

I assume you have determined the oil is coming from the exhaust pipe. Unfortunately a variety of leaks will end up coating the rear of the van due to the vacuum created behind by a square box (Westy) moving through air.

Hojon Junior Member # 180 posted 07-13-2000 01:22 PM

Yup, you might want to check and make sure it's actually coming out of the exhaust pipe. I had a bad pushrod leak on my '81 and with the force of the cooling fan and the vacuum created by moving through air I had droplets of oil all over the rear of my Vanagon.

85 Head Gasket

frito Member # 276 posted 08-15-2000 01:58 PM

I just purchased an 85 Westy with 38,000 miles. It does not appear to have any coolant leaks yet. Should I get the head gasket replaced or should I just wait until it leaks. The former is what the local dealership advised as well as a shop recommended on this site.

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 08-15-2000 07:13 PM

Heck no!

Although there was a minor upgrade in the gaskets, the major change was upgrading the torque specs for the heads. You can retorque the heads to newer specs without major engine work. Although I tend to err on the side of caution, a thousand buck for that privelege is a little steep.

Does the rest of the bus show good care & maintenance? AT 38K, your biggest worry is the wrong antifreeze got in there or they never changed it. See the coolant thread on the TIPS page. So no leaks, no cooling problems, and your antifreeze is clean and not contaminated? I wouldn't. One man's opinion.

frito Member # 276 posted 08-16-2000 09:32 AM

Thanks for the advice. As far as the maintenance goes I am not sure but the bus itself is extremely clean and was always garaged. The man who would have does this passed away a few years ago.

I plan on replacing the coolant this weekend as well as all other normal maintenance. I will look at the coolant thread.

Gary B. Dixner Member # 27 posted 08-16-2000 12:20 PM

I have an 85 and the head gasket on the right side started leaking at 76,000 miles when van was about 9 years old. Both were replaced at that time. Mine is in good shape but sounds like yours is pristine. A couple of thoughts: It's not unusual for odometer to break on these vehicles. If not recalibrated, mileage on odometer could be wrong. Mine has 17,000 more than odometer shows and it has recently stopped working again. Also, you can drive yourself nuts watching for a leak to start. Consider replacing the hoses, maybe the waterpump, flush the system and use VW phosphate free antifreeze, and make sure the system is bled according to Bentley recs. (lots of info on this site too). If you have it done and mechanic doesn't know about these procedures, move on. Happy motoring!

New Engine, Valve adjustment

bobrien Junior Member # 36 posted 07-17-2000 07:03 PM

I just bought a rebuilt engine. It has about 75 miles on it, and sounded like it needed a valve adjustment. While at TDC for number one, I could not get the #1 intake valve to loose enough to get any blade to fit, even when the adjustment screw is backed all the way off. It is the same for #2, and when I checked #3 and #4 they were tight, but I never tryed to adjust them (I did not want to make things worse). What could be wrong? Is it the rebuilders fault?

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 07-17-2000 09:00 PM

Please read the forum guidelines, especially #2, 3 & 4. We can't advise without knowing which engine (& thus which lifters -- solid or hydraulic), and what other tests, measurements & efforts you've made.

Did you check the distributor timing and be sure you had #1 TDC mark on the pulley also match the #1 TDC mark inside the distributor? Have you cycled the engine through 4-6 revolutions by hand and watched the valves to see if the valve opening & closing sequence is correct?

Please have the correct shop manual at hand as any answers will refer you to it. We can't tell you if it's the rebuilder's fault because we don't know what, if anything, is wrong with it.

bobrien Junior Member # 36 posted 09-01-2000 10:24 AM

It turns out that the rebuilder did not shim the 1 - 2 side of the engine, but did on the 3 - 4 side. Thats why I could adjust 3 & 4 and not 1 & 2.

Sunken exhaust valve

josh123 Junior Member # 380 posted 09-20-2000 02:20 AM

I have an '81 Westfalia (aircooled) that I brought into the shop. My mechanic said he found a "sunken exhaust valve" in the #2 cylinder and recommended replacing the long block. As I am leaving for Europe very soon I do not want to spend a fortune on it as I Intend to sell it . My questions are: do I need to replace the long block or can I just replace the cyclinder head? Or should I just sell as is? Or is replacing the engine the only way to go? Also what would the approximate cost differnce be?
Thanks in advance

Josh

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 09-20-2000 08:21 AM

A "sunken valve" is an indication the valve seat &/or valve have recessed into the head. In and of itself, it's just a head job. In fact, a seat & new valve by themselves probably wouldn't justify new heads -- this is a very common head repair during a head rebuild and most better automotive machine shops can handle it.

But . . .! Usually by the time you have a sunken valve, the head is going to be so worn out that a head rebuild/replacement is in order. By itself, it does NOT require a 'long block'.

I'd suggest you do a thorough analysis of the rest of the engine condition -- compression check, leak down check (See TOOLS forum, "Compression tester over the hill . . ."). They will give you an idea of whether you have a generally worn out engine or just a head problem.

Replace to sell as is? Tough call. Some might be willing to take it in that condition on the premise they can do much or all of the rebuild themselves and are willing to swap their labor for the reduced price it will have to have. Other's would insist on full repairs (before or at your expense) as they can't do work themselves. It's unlikely you could get the full cost of a 'long block' back.

Valves become tight after 50 mi

rtp421 Junior Member # 346 posted 10-03-2000 02:51 PM

hello

O have a 75 bus with a rebuilt 1800cc engine with single weber progressive. Recently my valves have been becoming tight and the engine has been running hotter because of it. I adjust them typically every 1000 mi but now I have to do it every 50mi. The rocker arm tips where it contacts the valve tip are all chewed up. I am worried now that the valves could perhaps be stretched. they are stainless steel, not the original sodium filled. should I replace the valves with sodium filled, and how can I stop thevalves from going out of adjustment so often? should i pop in new hydraulic lifters - my cam is for solid but I heard somewhere that people have done it before... please help my van is just sitting there with no heads.
thanx
ryan

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 10-03-2000 04:54 PM

Valve adjustments more than 3,000 mile intervals indicate a serious problem. Even at 3,000, it's usually just one or 2 a thousandth off -- nothing like you are experiencing.

It sound more like your valve seats are regressing. When you changed to the SS valves, did you get the matching head job and appropriate seats? Valves & seats MUST match hardness, profile & function. Along the same lines, valve springs should be matched to the engine -- to stiff will accelerate wear.

The cam should have little effect on using hydraulic lifters. A cam pushes on a flat follower and doesn't care if the top is a hollow cup or a fluid-filled reservoir.

Sodium filled valves are used because of their heat dissipation characteristics. You will have a different heat factor with the SS. I don't know if it will help or hurt.

All your modifications come with a price -- NOTHING is for free. VW didn't hop the engine from the factory for good reason. Any engine design is a compromise between power, fuel efficiency, driveability and RELIABILITY. Any changes will surely cut down one, another or all. Continued use will probably blow the engine.

Leak down test results. One cylinderd bad.

sabo Junior Member # 655 posted 03-05-2001 11:17 PM

A quick note: I have read as much as I could on this site to find out the answers to my questions, but the archives seem to be down or unavailable for some reason. Please forgive me if I am asking really common questions.

I'm looking to buy a Westfalia, and after looking at several, I am considering one that is a 1984 Westfalia Wolsfberg. The owner had a leak-down test done about 10k miles ago (it now has 187k) in 1995. The results were: 2%, 2%, 8%, 34%.

The vehicle is leaking a small amount of coolant. I have read about the head leak problems on this site and others, and since I think his price is reasonable for the condition of the van, I am prepared to buy it and put some money into getting the heads done or even replacing the engine. I guess I have a few questions.

1)Should I have another leak-down test done before I buy?

2)With one cylinder so out of whack, is there any problem with driving it this way?
3)I am planning on travelling a lot with the van, so I am wondering what I am sure lots of people have asked before: should I have something done now, or wait until something starts going really wrong (more coolant leaking, etc).

Thanks
Dan

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 03-06-2001 08:02 AM

The server handling the archives has crashed and John has not been able to get it going yet.

Such a difference in leak-down indicates a problem, but the leak-down should also tell where the problem lies. See the topic under the TOOLS forum for indications.

However, you indicate a head gasket leak and that shold be addressed. Unless you are sure where the leak is from and going to, it could cause catastrophic damage if leaking coolant into the combustion chambers or lubrication system. With that mileage, it's probably wise to go ahead with the head job or engine replacement/overhaul anyway. Then it will be done with and remove the worry. See the threads posted under "Reman vs. rebuild" and ohters on this site. Also the thread under TIPS on coolants.

Pitted heads & broken studs

jensens4me Junior Member # 652 posted 03-05-2001 02:48 PM

Greetings-

I just spent the weekend removing my heads from my 87 GL. In the process, one of the head studs broke off near the block in the upper middle. When I removed the broken stud, you could see where it had corroded, causing a weekend stud at the point of breakage. This happened to me several years ago on my 85, but that time it corroded the stud so much that it broke off while I was driving, spewing out coolent from the stud hole. Seems to me that this may be a problem that others have faced. I'm thinking it may be a good idea to replace all the studs whilst the heads are off.

What solutions are there, if any, for removing the stud from the block while the engine is still in the car, or do I need to remove it & take it to a VW specialist & have them do it. Have looked at your tool thread on stud removal, but didn't find anything that quite fit this problem.

Also, how pitted can the heads be for resurfacing before they are deemed unusable?
Can any of the pits be filled in & then resurfaced?

Thanks for your reply!
Bob Epperson

Forgot to mention mileage: 132,000

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 03-06-2001 08:26 AM

I'm making an assumption but the answer is probably applicable either way. I'm assuming your stud broke in the vicinity of the head where it joins the water jacket assembly of the cylinder housing. If that's the case, removal of the engine (& possibly cylinder sleeve) should give you better access to the stud for more normal removal. In fact it's recommended because you don't want to be applying torque force at the end farthest away from the threaded area. But at that point, you're probable better off removing the engine and doing the work on a stand.
I'm PERSONALLY not a fan of replacing studs unless necessary. If you've got a good, un-corroded factory stud, I'd let it be. But I also would consider replacing any that show signs of corrosion. If this is an isolated case of a head gasket leak affecting one stud only, then replace it only. When you pull that side, you'll get a much better picture.

Heads can be resurfaced, but I caution that means in moderation. Minor pitting and flaws in the surface where the head joins the water jacket are handled by the seal and sealing compound -- they don't have to be perfect. Pitting of the seal surface for the cylinder liners is more serious and the metal seals there won't compensate for damage or blow-by cuts. However, any machining there will increase compression and you may find yourself requiring a higher octane gas at the minimum. VW does not give specs per se and you might inquire if they offer a metal seal ring in more than one thickness as a guide. A small 'refinishing' cut of a few thousandths done by a quality shop shouldn't be too much.

Cylinder head question

spreadahead Junior Member # 732 posted 04-16-2001 11:24 AM

I've got an '85 Westy w/ 1.9 liter engine, about 115K on the clock. The previous owner overheated the beast and parked it behind his house, I purchased it a few weeks ago.
My plan wass to take both heads off, because both gaskets are blown. Well, I've taken the right side head off, in hopes of taking it to a machinist and having them mill it, then replace the blown gasket, and be back on the road, after the left side is done. When I got the head off, I peeked inside, to see that it looks like the metal in between the valves is eaten away on both cylinders. Is this normal wear, or is this from the overheat? On a side note, one of the push rods was bent, from what I have no idea...does this cause damage inside the block?

What are my odds of the block and its inards being toast. everything turns over fine. if theres a chance of other damage, i'll start looking for another engine, but if i have a possibility of just getting two remaned heads instead of a whole engine, this is what i want to do...$$$ is an issue.

Thanks for your input,

oZ ---busted '85 Westy

limited Member # 297 posted 07-07-2001 02:29 AM

The first thing to do is buy a Bently manual for it. They're worth the investment if you plan to keep the ride. I've been tinkering with an air cooled model for some time now and have done a lot of work on other cars I've owned. I'm not familar with the water cooler, but inclined to say the heads are toast and the motor probably has some miles left.

I just completed a full, replace everything rebuild. It's not cheap. However, the most expensive part is the heads. My air cooled head also had decay between the valve seats. It was present as a crack and some loss of metal. When I took the valves out, the seats litterly fell out. If it was me in the position, I'd check to see that the crank turns, look at the cylinders, and if everything appeared normal, just replace the heads (reman. through VW). Rebuild/replace later if the money isn't there or you need the ride imediately.

Best of Luck.

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 07-07-2001 06:54 AM

No, it is NOT normal wear; your heads require replacement. Although rebuild by a specialty shop with proper welding and seat replacement machinery & skills is possible it may not be worth it compared to a reman head.

Vehicles overheat only for reason and things like bent pushrods all point to abuse and lack of maintenance. It has quite possible suffered the damages covered in the TIPS forum under the Coolant thread. With the heads off, it's time to do a thorough evalution towards a complete rebuild or factory reman. (See the reman vs. rebuild thread under ENGINES.) I'm sorry if money is an issue -- it is with all of us -- but examination before purchase is always a wise investment and in terms of proper repairs, it's often the old axiom, "Pays me now or pays me later."

Oil Leakage

johnandliz Member # 184 posted 08-31-2000 04:06 AM

Before we left on our honeymoon, we had the gaskets replaced on our 86 westy... About half way through our honeymoon I noted drips of oil coming from a new place (more central) on the engine. Is it common to have dripping oil? How big of a concern is this?
I note from Bentley 15.21 that there are two gaskets (each side?). One centrally located and another around the "cylinder head." I would guess that it is the inner gasket that is leaking on both sides... advice? predictions on what it is and what should be done about it would be appreciated... thanks...

John

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 08-31-2000 08:29 AM

Oil leaks are difficult to find because it migrates to the low points or where driven by vehicle motion or 'slung' from its leak point.

The left gasket in the Bentley 15.21 diagram is the actual head gasket which seals the head to the water jacket around the cylinders -- there is no oil there. Valve cover gaskets are inexpensive cork and you might look for damaged/warped valve cover & at the wire bale that holds its tension.

If you had a recent head job, I'd look very closely at the pushrod tubes. The have a seal at both ends and get their tension from the collapsing ribs. Any maintenance that took them out should have been retensioned (Bentley 15.22) and the seals replaced at both ends. They can be replaced without removing the heads.

You might also look at the flywheel & crank seals. Any leaks there will migrate to the bottom of the engine. Both are normal wear -- common from about 50K miles up -- items and minor leakage is not serious. Look for an oil droplet at the vent hole at the bottom of the bell housing after the engine has been driven and then allowed to sit for 15 minutes (so any spray in the bell housing has a chance to drain down). For the front crank, you need to wipe dry and then look up behind the pulley with (with light & mirror)for oil wetness. Both of these leaks only occur while the engine is running, so are harder to diagnose after it's stopped. They are also more severe under driving load conditions that at idle in the shop.

johnandliz Member # 184 posted 09-19-2000 01:24 PM

The results are in. Two pushrod tubes had gone. I was losing a lot of oil. Good call Capt. Mike. The mechanic is doing the work. Is this something that is easily done at home if one has the correct tools?

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 09-19-2000 08:06 PM

Yep, Bentley 15.22. Doesn't really take too any special tools, but does require a torque wrench to put the rocker arm assembly back in. Total cost, about $1 a tube (aftermarket) for seals. Tube's are can be pretensioned and reused unless damaged.

johnandliz Member # 184 posted 09-20-2000 08:50 PM

Thought I would update now that I have the westy back (86 by the way). The mechanic installed a pushrod tube that has easier installation. He called them "newer" models that have seals that are much easier to work with. He said there were as simple as pulling each end back and popping them in. The actions he was using made with think of watch band pins. They were sent up to him from the VW dealer in the city and cost $40 CAD each.

Sorry I don't have the actual name of them, but I am sure the knowledge on this list probably has. I'll ask him tomorrow and upsdate this message.
Thanks.
JD

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 09-21-2000 08:47 AM

VW did upgrade the seals years ago but so long ago I doubt any dealer would still have the old ones in stock.

There have always been a set of telescopic push rod tubes available as the old Type I engines had to have the heads removed to change seals.

With a telescopic tube, one could remove the pushrod, break out the old tube, then install the new one and "stretch" it back out to fit. Great idea -- have used them myself -- but not required on the Type IV or water-cooled engines which used two different end diameters so the case end could slide through the head and the larger head end would still seal. Since you have to remove the rocker arm shaft to remove the pushrod anyway, the labor is the same so I don't see the advantage of using the more expensive adjustable version.

US$ prices were $13.85 std. vs. $50.40 adjustable a couple of years ago. My wholesaler prices were about half-that. You got a good deal IF they are OE VW on the more expensive adjustable.

Head gasket leaks

Bill Forst Junior Member # 156 posted 02-07-2001 11:06 PM

My '84 Westy has about 180,000 km on it now (120,000 mi). It dribbles a little coolant, only a few drips per night, apparently from the left head gasket area, but this is not getting significantly worse. Also a couple of drips of oil per night... not sure where from. Otherwise, it's running fine. It's been well maintained while I have had it, and apparently well before that. A friend had his '87's engine rebuilt recently, just cuz his mechanic said they don't last long past 180,000. I'm tempted to not do anything until there is a real problem, but I am planning a 10,000 km summer trip. Questions:

1. Will that coolant leak possibly get worse drastically?

2. What is the typical life expectancy of a well maintained waterboxer?
Much appreciate the advice!

mojo Member # 289 posted 02-08-2001 03:58 PM

I would fix,you probably just need the heads done,antifreeze leaks usally get worse,engine life differs,a well maintained should last 150,000 id think.my friend had a 48 poorly maintained and it went 190,000 and still runs,but barely,thats a long trip for a breakdown of that nature far away would be pricey and a pain,good luk,have fun,

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 02-09-2001 02:03 PM

Coolant leaks on the waterboxers are the quicksand of mechanics. Please read the TIPS forum about coolants, which discusses in length the different type of coolant leaks and some ramifications.

If the coolant is JUST leaking a little from the head's water jackets to the outside, it's not that serious. Long term, it will eventually eat or corrode into the head seal surface so shouldn't be left too long but it's not "today" critical.

The unknown is if any of that coolant is also leaking into a lubrication passage or the combustion chamber. Both of those can lead to quick engine failure. And even if the leaking only to the outside at the moment, it will gradually weaken the gasket and start leaking into the critical areas.

If you can monitor your oil and watch for running problems locally, it might be one thing to procrastinate a short while, but to run that risk on a long trip at highway speeds is another.

Engine life depends on so many variables I hesitate to give a blanket estimate. I've seen people, mostly because of hard driving and minimal maintenance, that only get 50-60,000 miles. Others get over 200,000. I've got 135K and no problems, but my folks needed that same head gasket leak fixed about 140K. The question is what is "hard driving". You might browse the thread on breaking in a rebuilt engine for some recommendations.

Bill Forst Junior Member # 156 posted 03-12-2001 10:26 PM

Just an update: I did take it to a shop. They took off the heads to see what needed doing, and discovered a cracked piston! It probably just needed new head gaskets to fix the leak, but the cracked piston convinced me to replace the engine. I was able to get a good deal on a factory rebuilt from a parts technician I know. Hopefully won't be back to this particular forum for a few years!

Clattering, stalling

Terry Winckler Junior Member # 641 posted 03-02-2001 05:01 PM

Nothing but troubles with my '84 WBX. A replacement ECU seemed to cure problem with constant stalling and starting when it got hot, but it still occassionally happens and now I can't get it smogged cuz hydrocarbons are way too high. I suspect valves since I had intermittent lifter noise when it got hot. Now, when it gets hot, there is very loud lifter/valve noise and the engine lopes and stalls. Help!

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 03-06-2001 08:30 AM

Hydraulic lifters should quiet down when warm, not increase. Start there. Any clatter except for the minor bleed down when left idle for long periods is not normal.

Odd spark plug color in 83.5 Westy

walkabout Junior Member # 670 posted 03-16-2001 11:24 PM

I'm almost afraid to ask about this. I changed the spark plugs in the 83.5 Westy that I bought a couople of months ago. Three of them looked normal. The fourth looked rusty. Does this mean I have a head gasket leak letting coolant into the cylinder? I have seen no white smoke and no visible external coolant leak. The Van has 145,000 miles but I am not sure if this is the original engine.

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 03-17-2001 06:43 PM

That's a good possibility. Pull, clean and reinstall with a good anti-seize and run another test to eliminate that you may have gotten moisture during the plug change, but if it comes back, start with the compression and leak down tests (See TOOLS forum).

walkabout Junior Member # 670 posted 03-18-2001 05:23 PM

Thanks Capt. Mike for a great site and for good advice. Pulled the new plugs to do the compression test. The same plug, right front, is already starting to show a "rusty" color. Now the worse news. That cyl. only had 95 psi. Both rear cyls. had 150. The left front was low, as expected, at 125. It is not leaking any coolant, but I suspect I am losing some to evaporation sinc removing the coolant overflow cap allows some foaming of coolant to occur. I may start shopping for a reman engine tomorrow.

Capt. Mike Moderator Member # 11 posted 03-18-2001 10:15 PM

Do get a 2nd opinion and be sure your problem is not just the head/head gasket. Either could give low compression readings that would be cured by a head job over a full reman. However, at 145K, it may still be prudent as you might end up spending diagnositic money on a head job that would be short term until the remainder of the engine needed work.

Also get a 2nd compression (and the leakdown) test. Just to satisfy yourself. The 150 is too high for a 145K engine and may indicate carboning up or a past head job that has cut down or resurfaced, thus artificially raising compression beyond what a new engine maximum was.

Sort of measure twice, reman once.

[This message was edited by Capt. Mike on November 29, 2002 at 06:51 AM.]

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred from another post to consolidate with similar topics.

Oil Burning Mystery

rgarrettjr Junior Member # 1561 posted 07-12-2001 05:50 PM

I have about 35,000 miles on a dual port 1600cc engine in a '71 Westy and have changed its Valvoline 20W-50 racing oil every 3,000 miles. Have also used CD-2 lead substitue and 91 octane gas.

Five hundred miles back, I was out of lead substitute and filled the tank twice in that interval. Following a 150 mile highway trip, I discovered the engine to be emitting a thick blue cloud out of the exhaust at every shift. Power was still good. I called my resources, one suggested a compression check and the other a leak down check. Pending that, I began using lead substitute again, did an oil change, adjusted valves (to .008 while my standard is .006) and added 16 oz of Slick 50 for high mileage engines. Gradually and over the course of the next 400 miles, half on dirt/washboard roads, the smoking has stopped and power is as good as ever. Gas mileage is constant at about 18 mpg. The oil I was burning never really revealed itself as a loss at the dipstick.
Question -- is it a) the lead substitute, b) Slick 50, c) rough roads, d) valve adjustment, e) oil change, or f) all of the above?! What is your prediction on what I can expect in the future (next 10,000 miles)? Like many on this board, I stick to 55-60 mph, 3,000 mile service intervals (oil, valves, plugs, points, condensor). Thanks! -- Richard Garrett

[Capt. Mike]

I have about 35,000 miles on a dual port 1600cc engine in a '71 Westy . . .. Have also used CD-2 lead substitue and 91 octane gas.

Since an original 35K on a '71 is pretty rare, I'm assuming this is a fairly fresh rebuild. In which case, if done by a competent rebuilder or a factory reman, the valves & seats are hardened so the use of a lead substitute is not only a waste, but adds to fouling and the resultant chance of a sticking valve or rings. There are comprehensive posts on this site about fuel octanes and grades. Unless your vehicle is modified, the 91 ocatane is also a waste and can actually add to running problems.



Five hundred miles back, I was out of lead substitute and filled the tank twice in that interval.

Clean fuel without additives can always break free debris & fouling.


. . adjusted valves (to .008 while my standard is .006) and added 16 oz of Slick 50 for high mileage engines.

The .006" setting was for another engine during a limited production span. Not your 'upright' style; it won't hurt except performance (minor) and more noise. But the Slick 50 is probably the source of your problem. Elsewhere on the site you'll see the warning against using Slick 50 type products and their undesireable side effects. Most of these 'performance' additives are snake oil and can do more harm than good -- Slick 50 being one of them. Consumer Reports says the FTC even sought an injunction against them & others for false advertising. I'm guessing that some of the trash created by Slick 50's "coating" came loose, got caught in a valve seat or ring, and started your oil consumption. Hopefully, it has worked clear. Use a good valve cleaner once (L-M Ventil Sauber for one) in hopes of removing any remaining debris.


Question -- is it a) the lead substitute, b) Slick 50, c) rough roads, d) valve adjustment, e) oil change, or f) all of the above?! What is your prediction on what I can expect in the future (next 10,000 miles)?

a) Maybe; b)Probably; c) Unlikely, except as compounding a & b; d) Unlikely; e)Could contribute -- a good oil has detergent additives that may have flushed out the fouling &/or Slick 50 residue. That presumes it didn't involve an over-fill that could force excess oil past rings; f)"All things being equal" never are.

You always run the risk that anytime there's a problem like that, there has been some permanent damage. A compression & leak-down test should ease your mind. I'd think your biggest worry is that more of the Slick 50 residue will break free and repeat, or worse yet, clog an oil passage.

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred from another post to consolidate same topics

What to do after valve regrind

rtp421 Junior Member # 346 posted 09-16-2001 02:47 AM

hey all

Got a 75' with an 1800cc that I just got the passenger side head job with new valves and new grinding of the seat to perfection but the problem is the rocker arm adjustable valve tips for the solid lifters - its like the rocker arm valve tips have NO adjustment whatsoever and are out all the way. it wants to push the valve spring all the way down until the point the spring cant be compressed.... and the adjustment screw is all the way out WHAT? but anyways can you put shims under the rocker arm for this (?) and whats up with this phenomenom because she ran pretty good up until the valve started mushroomin'... timing is good @ 8 degrees and she has a single carb and runs cool but the valve train seems to be elusive. its almost like the pushrods were too long if you could imagine how that would affect the drivetrain if you were trying to turn the engine over by hand.... I hope this makes sense because I am definetly confused.
peace within humanity

-greenbus

[Capt. Mike]

You better back up (and perhaps find a new mechanic) before you drop a valve and blow an engine.

It's impossible to say for sure what happened during the head job but, assuming you just took the head off and had the job done, something has changed from original.

New valves could be the wrong ones and have the wrong length; the shop that did the head job could have installed the wrong seats; and it's possible that reassembly has installed the wrong gaskets. If the tappet adjusters where in the middle of the range before the job, something has changed that rocker arm to valve length. I'm assuming that nobody changed pushrods or lifters.

Until you know which, continued use could result in major damage. This will no doubt involve removal of the head again.

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred to consolidate same topics.

Engine noise on left -rear cylinder

fishkens Junior Member # 2772 posted 11-22-2001 09:26 PM

I've got am '85 Westy w/ 194,000 miles (I believe that the engine was replaced due to coolant issues at about 100K). I'm trying to track down a noise that's been a bit elusive.
The noise is a constant 'grrrrr' at idle up to about 2000 rpm at which point it either disappears or is covered by normal engine sound. At first it sounds like a bearing noise in one of the belt driven devices but the noise continues even after removing all belts.

I've placed a stethoscope on the cylinders and the noise is clearly heard on the top of the left-rear cylinder near the waterpump (even with the waterpump belt removed) and can't be heard at the other 3 cylinders.

I've lived with this noise for about a year but it seems to be getting a bit worse. The local VW mechanic isn't sure what it might be.

The engine has great power, passed the emissins test with flying colors last month, does not burn oil and generally seems to be in great health.

Any tips on what this noise may be?

Thanks.

[Capt. Mike]

Two things come to mind. When you say "top of engine" that generally infers the head area. Valve train wear or damage could be creating that noise. The rocker arms assemblies have slack in them and when worn, excessive play could cause the noise. It's possible a lifter isn't working correctly or has not been adjusted correctly.

Also, in the general vicinity of the waterpump is the distributor drive. This is a gear-driven shaft off of the crankshaft and wear could cause vibration. If it turns out to be distributor drive, please post progress in the "Crankcase . . ." topic. If the distributor itself, there is separate forum.

[fishkens]

Thanks for the tips. In this case I was referring to the geographical top of the engine or more precisely, the side of the cylinder that is pointing up to the sky instead of the physiological top of the engine (it's head).

I'll listen to what's going on under the valve cover to hear what that sounds like, but the distributor drive seems to be a likely suspect because this appears to be coming from the guts of the engine. It's actually very hard to determine where it's coming from w/out the stehoscope.

Thanks again - I'll keep the list updated.

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred to consolidate same topic.

Engine blowing blue smoke

Duane Junior Member # 2542 posted 01-07-2002 12:23 AM

I have a 87 westy. The spedometer quit reading 3 years ago at 84,000 miles. I have had it for a year and noticed an occational cloud of blue smoke on start up. It ran strong so I didn't worry much about it. Then this winter it developed a tick in the engine. I took it into my mechanic and he found a loose nut on a rocker arm. It fixed the tick but still has the smoke problem. To fix this problem do I need a valve job or should I put a new engine in?

[Capt. Mike]

A loose nut? Sounds like the nut that is loose is in the shop, not the engine. All hydraulic lifters will tick or rattle when the lifter bleeds down. More common on older engines, and not a concern if it quits after the engine has warmed up.

A cloud of blue smoke at start-up usually indicates worn valve stem seals & guides. If it goes away as the engine warms up, it's not particularly harmful but is an indicator you are probably getting close to a head job. However, first do compression &/or leak-down tests. There is no incentive to do a head job for just the occassional early start up smoke unless the engine shows other signs of wear. Bear in mind, compression & leak-down tests may also indicate it's time for a general engine overhaul/reman replacement because if the valves are showing that age, it's likely the rest of the engine is, too.

[westymanbc]

Good Day,

I have a 1984 Westfalia, watercooled 1.9l. I am just starting my second valve job within a year. After removing the cylinder heads the cylinder closest to front of vehicle on both heads has a chip/hole in the exhaust valve. This is the same problem i had a year ago when i removed both heads, had them refitted with new valves, and i then installed them ... the same 2 cylinders have bad exhaust valves again. I noted also a lot of carbon build up at the top of the cylinder head and also on the top of all pistons. I do not know if this indicates a problem or is normal ??

I also wondered if anyone knows why these heads burn out valves. I never seem to drive the car too hot, it runs normally below the halfway mark on the temp guage. When i did the valve job last time i did not bleed the system as per the instructions in Bentley (ie raise front of car, undo bleed screw at front) i simply filed it up with antifreeze and ran it until it was topped off ... never leaked antifreeze and never seemd to have a problem ... wondering though if one can get a pocket of air that causes this valve problem ?? I am wondering if my home repair somehow was not done properly ... the van did drive perfectly with lots of power for about 7 months after repair.

Conditions of the valve burining out.
Driving on a steep gravel road. 2 problems occurred and i am not sure which one was first. Exhaust pipe cracked close to the junction point on the left hand side, and the engine started idling roughly and had a bit less power. Not sure if the exhaust cracked first and threw off the cooling to the cylinder ... the exhaust did crack closest to the first valve that went (the front, driver side cylinder) OR if the valve went and then the rougher idling motor caused the exhaust to crack OR maybe no relation between the 2. I continued to drive the vehicle for several more months during which the power got less and less and finally did a compression test to find 2 cylinders with 0 compression.

I hope i have posted this in correct section. My main questions are

1. If this is a common problem ... ie do valves burn out so soon sometimes in these engines ??
2. Does carbon build up on piston and cylinder head indicate a problem ??

Thanks in advance for any light anyone can shed !

Mike

[Capt. Mike]

Heads don't just burn valves; engine problems or bad work does. If you went through two head jobs in a year, something was wrong with the first one, or the underlying cause was not repaired.

First go back to find out why you have carbon buildup. Carbon is the byproduct of poor combustion, i.e. too much fuel for the air ratio, low quality fuel, burning oil, or the wrong heat range of the plug causing incomplete combustion (or a few other reasons for the same). Plugs are discussed in their forum but the wrong heat range can wreck an engine.

If the valve is chipped or cracked, there is a good chance it has hit the carbon or some other contaminate. It doesn't take much at those speeds. You could be 'sucking' contaminates into your air supply.

The valves don't lie in the coolant flow so coolant air pockets are not the likely cause. They can cause hot spots but the symptoms don't match. An '87 should eventually self-bleed and the engine should show overheat warnings, if not temperatures.

The exhaust pipe lies after the combustion process. A crack is not likely the cause if past the manifold flange. It can mess up your running smoothness to some extend because the designed in back-pressure is gone, but not usually enough to damage two valves on opposite sides of the engine.

So you answer your questions? 1. No; 2. Yes.

[westymanbc]

Thanks for the quick reply and information. I took the heads to a repair shop specializing in VW's and they took a good look at the valves and concluded I tightened the valve lifter adjustment too much. The Bentley says "turn adjusting screw 2 turns clockwise and tighten locknuts". The repair shop said they usually only tighten about 1 to 1.5 turns as too much tightening will cause the valves to remain open when the engine is revving at high rpm's. They said the condition of my valves were consistent with this explanation. I also asked at my local parts store and they informed me they usually only turn them about 3/4 of a turn. This explanation makes sense to me given that the valve did seem to burn out while driving at high rpm's going up a steep hill. One other factor that may be important is that I was using SAE 30 (yes - very heavy) oil (on a mechanics recommendation since I have a big end bearing low rpm rumble and this would help ??) and this could also cause valve closure problems at high rpm's.

Thanks for the info ... i thought i should share this information with others as it may be helpful.

Capt Mike - if this explanation seems incorrect you may wish to delete it or modify it so other members do not use is as a basis for setting valves !!

Thanks

Mike

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred to consolidate same topic.

Head gasket replacement per Bentley

tim smith Junior Member # 845 posted 03-20-2002 11:01 PM

Hi, this is the first time that I have posted anything. I have a 86 Weste with a 1.9 leaking coolant from the LH head gasket. The rh side was replaced before I got the van. Has about 140,000 miles on the engine but runs strong and passed the California smog test.I looked in the manual and was wondering why I need to darn near tear the whole engine down just to replace the head gasket. It calls for removing the crank pulley, water pump, ect. I am a Tec. on domestics and quite often the book goes the long way around the block. Any one care to shed some light on this subject?

[Capt. Mike]

The Bentley, sections 15.17 & 15.21 says:


Note: Cylinder head can be removed and installed with engine installed.

The sections you reference, added only to the latest editions of the Bentley, focus on the resealing of the heads and cylinder sleeves. It's understandable the extra items would have to be removed to make way for pulling sleeves and pistons. To my way of thinking, this is getting so close to an engine overhaul, it would make no sense to attempt with the engine in the vehicle -- removing the engine is easy enough.

I would assume this procedure is meant to address cases where the cylinder to head match is defective, or where the sleeve to case seal is questionable. In most cases, head repairs or a leaky gasket without additional damage, or cylinder/piston problems wouldn't justify this extreme.

You'll still have to remove the coolant pipes, exhaust, intake and some miscellaneous items, but not those items meant to access the sleeves and piston wrist pins.

With the coolant pipes disconnected, you might want to consider replacing the waterpump if yours is getting high mileage. Waterpumps are not the Vanagons' strong suit and if you're already half-way disconnected, it might be an opportunity to finish the job.

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred to consolidate same topic.

Coolant leak on left head

daveinportland Junior Member # 3127 posted 03-29-2002 01:00 AM

I have a 1988 westy with a MV engine. There is a small coolant leak on the left head. No coolant gets into the oil, and no coolant seem to be getting into the cyclinders - no high pressure in the cooling system and it doesn't overheat. It does leave a small spot on the ground sometimes, it looses a pint or so of coolant every couple hundred miles, and there is a ongoing mess in the engine well. Problem is I can never catch it leaking. I've pressure tested the coolling system warm an cold ( i have a regular cooling system tester) but it doesn't loose any pressure. I've pulled the hatch when I stop, but she must see me coming. The previous owner got an estimate to install a new head, but I can't convince myself that it really needs that. She runs like a top and always get 18 -20 mpg - even with 115K miles. It doesn't look like anybody has ever worked on the engine and there is no mention of engine work in the service records. I does seem like this has been an on and off probelm for about 20,000 miles though. Nearest I can tell it is leaking from one of the head cap nuts (#7 in the tourqe sequence), but there may be a hair-line crack that I can't see. Do these head develop cracks? The manual doesn't show any seals on these caps, just some goop. Could it be as simple as draining the coolant and putting some orange RTV on the cap nut.

[Capt. Mike]

A pint every 200 miles is excessive and since you indicate there are no hose or radiator leaks, it is going somewhere, usually not to a 'good' place. Some leaks do not manifest themselves in running problems as outlined in the previous posts above.

The nuts do NOT use "orange RTV" as a sealant. The sealant is a high-temp metal-to-metal type filler that does not harden and lock like a Lok-Tite or dissolve under solvents like RTV will. Although I'm sure VW's special part number has a US equivalent, I'm not sure what it is so won't recommend a substitution. The OEM sealant cost is relatively insignificant to the head job total. Even then, the sealant is not meant to compensate for deteriorated or damaged head surfaces.

Yes, heads do crack -- from many reasons including someone trying to "tighten up" a leaking cap nut. The web at #5 & #7 appears to be the weakest link as it's not supported all around like others. The only inspection is to remove the cap nut. If you see a crack -- replace the head. If you don't see a crack, then you'll still need to pull the head for further examination and at that point, do the routine head-gasket job.

[dwparti]

I bought an 83 air cooled Westy that the seller said the engine was rebuilt with solid lifters. After 3000 or so miles #3 cylinder would no longer hold compression. Could this be just a valve adjustment? Would I be able to do it without pulling the motor? The Bentley manual only covers hydraulic lifters. Thanks............

[Capt. Mike]

The cause behind a lack of compression could be from several factors and a leak-down test (See TOOLS forum -- Compression tester thread) is about the only means to isolate the reason.

If someone has replaced hydraulic lifters with mechanical, and failed to have the valve properly adjusted per the mechanical lifter specs, it could leave the valve not closing properly and thus loss of compression AND burned valve & seat. Hydraulic lifters are done with preload, mechanical require tappet clearance.

I don't know why anyone would go back to mechanical lifters considering the advantages of hydraulic. Lazy; don't understand the principles of hydraulic; used parts; too cheap to spend the few extra bucks to do it right? Lifters can be changed without tearing down the engine and you should consider going back to original. A shop or mechanic could hardly be faulted for adjusting per the expected factory specs of a hydraulic.

Instructions for adjusting mechanical lifters in an air-cooled Vanagon would be the same as the older Type II's before hydraulic lifters. I'd suggest you get or borrow a '68-'79 Type II Bentley for the details and procedure in Section 5-11.9. (You can photocopy the page for future reference.) VW's procedure is different than many manufacturers' in that it does not follow the typical firing order or engine rotation direction. Clearance should be .15mm (.006") cold.

[Chip]

Ok, here's my shot at this board!
I have an 84, 1.9, 4 spd 100,000 mile new headgasket water cooled ticking Westy. It sits for a few days and when starting up the lifters are LOUD. I drive for a few miles and it starts loosing power and when I let off the gas I can hear the pinging coming all the way through the front of the van, like it's vibrating through the water line or clutch linckage?. After a few more miles the lifters pump up and it runs perfect, quite and a lot of power. Now out on the interstate driving at 70mph after an hour or so it starts loosing power and the lifters start ticking again. After a 3 hr. trip it sounds like a diesel. Let it sit at the camp for 2 days and it stars up and runs perfect until another 30 min. on the interstate and it's back to the same old problems. Also I'll add that the fuel consumption is HORRIBLE, 9 m/gal town 15 m/gal hwy.
I had one mechanic do a compresion check and one cylinder was at 45, one at 65 and the others around 145. He said "need new engine". My other mechanic that has done work on it before said that if the lifters had bled down that this would cause the low compression. He has it now and I'm not sure I trust him.
Need more info just ask and I'll do my best to supply it.

Thanks

Chip

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred to consolidate same topic.

Matt Member posted May 21, 2002 09:51 PM

Hello all,

Looking for a thread in "engine" called "cyllinder head leaks" as previously mentioned in one of Capt. Mike's posts. Has this thread been omitted...does that mean I can ignore the problem? (kidding) Does anyone have a source for concise and relatively straight forward information on the problem? i.e. Diagnosing cracks vs. gasket problems, where the leak occurs, coolant vs. oil or both (arghh). Any help at all would be appreciated. My '86 westy dripped (cooland mixed w/ oil) for the first time in the 3 wonderful years I've owned her. I need to see where I stand.

Thanks

Capt. Mike

[Capt. Mike]

Leaking "coolant mixed w/ oil" by itself is not alarming as most older VW's leak to one degree or another -- mostly other -- and coolant leaks, especially new ones, wash oil from other sources off with it so the puddle looks mixed. The source of the leak has to be isolated.

See the Leak Down gauge post in the TOOLS forum and the Coolant pressure testing procedure in the COOLING SYSTEM forum.

Capt. Mike

[ben]

The Bentley calls for 50NM (37 ft lb) for the head cap screw!

I heard that the torque was revised with the 2.1L (86 and over)?

My dealer tells me that he is simply not sure. I am sure I have seen some post on that subject but I wasn't able to find anything.

Is that the revised torque (50NM)?

I put 55NM on mine last year.

Regards, Ben

[Capt. Mike]

The last tech bulletin I saw was 50NM = 37 ft-lb. The design of the head gasket is such that excessive torque could distort or damage the gasket. But I would probably do a retorque after it's set overnight and again at the next oil change.

Capt. Mike

[qbini]

Hi All, I have an 87 Westie w/ 35k on the reblt engine that has the same symptoms as fishkens noise. The P.O. claimed it made the noise before the rebld as well. He tooks good care of the van, i have all the paperwork. Engine runs great with good power but the noise is LOUD at idle. I am planning a trip to Northern California this summer and need to know what the noise is before i leave. This thread runs out before there is a conclusive fix... any ideas?
thanks much!
qbini

[westymanbc]

I am replacing my cylinder head (passenger side) in my 1984 Vanagon Westy ... the part people i deal with say they sell the 2.1l cyl head which fits withno problems into a 1.9l engine.

Does anyone have experience with this ? Or has anyone heard of this being the case ??

They also mentioned they have to be replaced in pairs - but could offer no reason for requireing both heads to be replaced. I have only one bad valve on the passenger side thus wish to replace only the one head - compression is 140, and 125 on drivers side so no replacement required.

Thanks

[This message was edited by westy man bc on September 22, 2002 at 03:30 PM.]

[joewood]

Hello,

I own a 91 Westfalia 2.1l with 180,000 (approx 110mi) on it. The heads were replaced at 100,000 km. A recent pressure test revealed slight leakage at the gaskets. The van has been well maintained throughout its life with VW coolant always wsed. I find it difficult to believe this is a corrosion problem and that heads will need replacement again.

What kind of mileage should I expect from the first head replacement? Do you think that it is possible that it could just be a sealing problem? How concerned should I be with a leak that only shows up under the test as it was dry before that?

Regards,
Joe Wood

[Capt. Mike]

A head replacement (with gasket) only addresses 2/3 of the problem. The remaining -- condition and corrosion of the cylinder side and studs -- is now an additional 80K miles older. It was subject to the quality and inspections of the repair facility. Therefore a new head alone does not necessarily give you 'new life' and start-over of mileage expectations.

Without knowing the cause of the leak, it's impossible to advise on continued driving. If the leak is one that only forces coolant out the seal to the outside, it will not hurt the engine except the continued damage to the gasket & seal areas of the head & engine. But can you be 100% certain it does not also leak into the cylinder or an adjacent cylinder? Those leaks could cause catastrophic engine failure. Either way, you have to pull the heads for new gaskets at a minimum, which would give you an opportunity to inspect the heads & engine sides.

[oshlowen]

I have a 1970 Campmobile with a single port 1600. I am doing a minor rebuild (basically replacing the rings, cleaning parts and the block, checking the pistons and cylinders), and it appears the heads need some work - there is some evidence of blowby on one cylinder at least. The valves on another cylinder are not covered in carbon, but instead are a reddish-pink color. I was considering replacing the heads and was wondering about whether to invest in new heads or just to purchase rebuilt heads. Money is a bit of an issue, but I'd like to hear arguments for both options and personal experiences from the process.

Thanks in advance for the advice,
Owen

[Capt. Mike]

The comments under "Rebuild vs. Reman" on engines apply to sub-assemblies such as cylinder heads as well. If you have your own heads rebuilt, you at least know what you are starting with.

"Rebuild" is only as good as the rebuilder and the parts he uses. Thus quality varies from very good to "might as well use junk-yard". Unfortunately, many aftermarket rebuilders use the term 'reman' rather loosely.

"New" head is deceptive -- a factory new head and most aftermarket OEM suppliers, 'new' does NOT include valves, etc. Thus you are required to obtain, install (which includes lapping to the seats) and adjust the valve gear as in doing a rebuild. Limers in Henderson (have used satisfactorily) & T-Hoff in Raleigh (have not used for rebuilds) are probably your two closest rebuilders with known VW experience. If money and time are an issue, the best -- Motorsports in Raleigh -- is probably not an option.

[jake_beaulieu]

1982 Westy 155,000 on body and transmission, 15,ooo on remanufactured motor

When I first start up my bus there is a loud squeaking noise coming from the motor. It is not a continuous squeak, but occurs variably from 1/second to 1/5 seconds. This lasts for a few minutes and then seems to go away. However, as soon as I begin to accelerate from a dead stop the squeaking begins again until I have reached a more or less constant speed. This happens at all speeds. For example, I can be quietly cruising at 35 mph in town, but as soon as I begin to accelerate the squeaking kicks in again, and then fades away as soon as I stop accellerating. The frequency and volume of the squeaking is correllated with accellerating rate.

I recently purchased this Westy and the PO had no information on the noise. I replaced and tightened the belt, but that did not have an effect.

Any advice on where to start trouble shooting would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jake
jake_beaulieu@yahoo.com

[A. Cooper]

Sure sounds like a slipping belt, so I'd start there. You don't say what motor you have -- an '82 could have the last of the air-cooled engines, or the first of the waterboxers, or even an inline diesel. All these motors have a variety of belt configurations, so make sure you're checking ALL the belts.

First, make sure you've adjusted all the belts correctly, as per the workshop manual; typically just tight enough to prevent slippage. Maybe go a little tighter to prevent squealing upon startup in cold or damp weather.
Next, while you're inspecting and tensioning them, look for stray oil that may be getting flung onto the belts or pulleys. Usually originating from leaky seals on the crankshaft or camshaft, oil from inside the engine can get onto your belts to cause slipping and squealing, and eventually deteriorate the belt to the point of failure. If this is the case, you'll need to replace those seals.
Finally, perhaps it's not the belts at all, but rather something else entirely. Have a friend start the van cold while you stick your head down near the engine with a flashlight. Have your friend rev the motor while you look for flopping belts and listen for squealing, trying to pinpoint the source of the noise. If you've correctly adjusted the belt, and it's free of oil contamination, and you've still got that darn noise, start looking at bearings and other rotating parts. Camshaft bearings, timing belt tensioners (applicable to diesels), water pump bearings, etc..

Good luck, and let us know how you solve it!

[jake_beaulieu]

Sorry I forgot to include the engine information (see above). My 82 has an air cooled motor.

I just replaced the only belt this vehicle has last weekend (fan to alternater). I tightened it according to Bentley specs. This made absolutely no difference. I will try to pinpoint the source of the noise and let you know what I come up with.

jake
jake_beaulieu@yahoo.com

[westymanbc]

Good Day,

I am at a loss to explain the engine problems i have been having with my 1984 Westy 1.9 l waterboxer.

I am now about to do my 4th valve job in the past 3 years. Each time the valves towards the front of the vehicle on both sides burn out while the valves on the back of the vehicle are fine.

I have never had any kind of gasket leak.

I set the valves to approx 3/4 to 1 1/4 turns as opposed to the 2 turns in Bentley (i have a previous post on this)

After several posts to this site and some research I became aware that a lean gas mixture could easily cause this burn out problem. I was aware of this as I completed my 3rd valve job in October 2002 and decided to take the vehicle ot a good VW mechanic in the city. They found that the engine was indeed running very lean. They found a cracked air intake manifold and replaced it, set the emmisions, and I thought all would be fine. I also had them bleed the cooling system as per instructions.

This time though the valves burnt out even sooner ... about 3 months later the valves I had replaced were burnt again !! aaagh !! And again the same valves on each side towards the front of the vehicle. The back valves test out at 150 to 160 psi, the front at 0 to 20.

Now, I have the option of having a 2.1 liter rebuilt engine installed for $3500 canadian dollars. I am seriously thinking of this as I am at my wits end to find out why these same valves are always burning out. I should also mention that the shop that does the machining each year to my cylinder head has pointed out that there are cracks between the seats and the cyl head is worn BUT I was told this should not cause the valves to burn.

So, I am trying to decide the following options -

1. Install a rebuilt 2.1liter for 3500 incl installation
2. Buy new cylinder heads for approx $1800canadian
3. Redo my current cylinder heads for the 4th time in 3 years and hope for the best.


Any ideas anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Capt. Mike]

Sometimes it's best to take the sack rather than scramble. The cause of repeat burned valves could be a dozen different things.

First, I wouldn't rebuild the existing heads. If they have cracks and have been machined out for new seats several times, they're at the end of their life cycle.

Since valves can get burned by other heat related questions, such as the cooling system not getting coolant to the heads in appropriate flow or capacity, the new engine should address this -- presuming it comes with a new waterpump (not standard) and the rest of the cooling system is checked from top to bottom.

A new engine will not address any fuel/air ratios. Thus the intake side will still have to be checked completely. If it's allowing air anywhere along the feed route, or there is an FI problem, it could still cause burned valves.

An exhaust problem -- the O² sensor side -- can cause the engine to be running excessively lean by overcompensating for readings. This can be the O² sensor itself, blockage or failure of the cat, or back in the ECU where the fuel/air ratio is adjusted based on the O² readings.

And, of course, there is always the possibility the ECU or one of its components is doing the same false fuel/air mix. Ditto the wrong heat range of spark plug.

I guess last, I'll ask you to look at your driving habits. Just by the nature of the design, some cylinders are futher down the coolant flow than others. Excessively hard driving compounds that and the cylinders furthest from the cooling flow go first.

[stratmanx]

'85 Westy, 1.9l motor.

I've got as it appears now, the left heads leaking, so will have to replace that.

Also, the water pump bearing is shot, and there is much movement and noise from the bearing area behing the pully on the pump.

All this being said, althought the Bentley says you can service the heads w/ the motor in the vichicle, can you replace the waterpump w/ the motor in frame as well ??

And in both cases, is it not reccomended, or too difficult that way ?

Thanks folks..

[Capt. Mike]

Heads can be replaced in-vehicle. Since removing the engine is not that complicated, many chose to do so for both the convenience and the opportunity to inspect and do other service items apropriate to your mileage such as seals. See "Engine Replacement -- consideration . . ." topic.

Also, though you assume a 'head replacement' is all that is necessary, when you get the head off, you may find other work or damage that would require the engine removal. So how confident are you of your diagnosis?

Water pump replacement discussed in COOLING SYSTEM forum.

[jake_beaulieu]

RE: Squeaking engine

This message is a follow up to the one posted 7 messages above. I finally had the time to take a closer look at the problem. It turns out that one of the head nuts on the right side came VERY lose. The squeaking noise was bursts of air escaping from the cylinder during the compression stroke. I tightened it up today and the noise is gone. I don't know why this nut would come loose once it has been torqued. I hope the stud is not backing out of the block. I'll just have to wait and see if the squeak returns.
Jake

jake_beaulieu@yahoo.com

[stratmanx]

REMOVING HEADS WITHOUT THE LINERS FOLLOWING

Hi guys. I picked up an 84 1.9 that I was going to put all new gaskets in and then swap out w/ the present motor in my 85 Westy that has a leaking head.

Upon taking off the head on the replacement motor, the cylinder liners came off with the head. It too a bit of bopping w/ the plastic hammer to seperate them and clean the mating surfaces.

Now that the liners are out, I know it's a pain in the A## to get the pistons back into them, so my thought is to just pull both the heads from the replacement motor and put them on the present motor. they are both in very good shape.

My question is, is this going to happen again when I pull the bad heads from the present engine ?

How do I prevent this from happining ?

thanks all..

[Capt. Mike]

Cylinder liners are basically held in by the pressure of the head and their contact surface is the seals between. Thus the "stuck-to" is just as likely on any used engine.

Although replacing heads with the engine in the vehicle is possible, at the age & mileage of both engines, it should be done with the engines removed and at that point, the consequences of the stuck liners can actually be a benfit by going ahead and doing the lower seals and checking other conditions at the same time. If the liner lifts at all (even so little you don't notice) and you just bolt the heads to bring it back snug, the lower seal, besides being older, has now been broken loose and may no longer reseal, allowing coolant into the case.

[TE.HORNTOAD]

I need to know procedures to resurface cylinedr heads for a 79 model bus 2.0 liter. I have searched the RB and unable to find any info on head resurfacing to stop leaks between head and cylinder. Am I to asume there is no resurfacing allowed and that when leaks occur a new head is the only cure? Also how much compression is too much above spec 135psi? I had a machine shop resurface a set of almost new AMC heads and ask them to keep compression at the 135psi spec. When I reinstalled the heads and did a compressio check the compression was 165 a 22%increase above the spec 135 and I asume a 22% increase in the compression ratiol. I fear the excessively high compression will cause preignition and power knocks and also lead to overheating of pistons and heads and early failure of engine. Please! ay one knowledgable of this situation reply. Thanks in advance

Ray

Ray McFall

[Capt. Mike]

It took me a while to catch up with my best engine source, a race shop whose engines have dozens of race, track and even world records.

His take: First, the compression gauge is, though still useful, one of the least reliable tools to determine true engine condition. Readings vary so much from so many exterior conditions that 'poundage' is at best a guess. See the "Is the Compression Tester Over the Hill" topic in TOOLS. It's primary value is to check for variation between cylinders and pick up major compression leaks. The change you experienced may be gauge, conditions, or -- believe it or not -- a better fit and seating from your individual head job compared to the mass-produced factory. Heck, even how much fuel (compression 'standards' are warm with full throttle), type & age of oil, or even humidity could account for that much.

Compression ratio is a mathematical measure of space by volume reduction; it's related to compression pressure but not in exact return. As the engine runs through the compression stroke, the pressure created is not linear. Your jump is not a measure of compression ratio %.

The amount of cut in a routine head job is not likely to significantly affect either compression or fuel octane requirements. When I told him of your change, he laughed and said, "Be thankful, you might get an extra couple of HP."

Excessive milling, and we're talking dozens of thousanths, not just the .005-.015" that is common in a single 'dress' milling, will eventually show in loss of cam timing and other factors, but he says that's usually a head that has been either milled several times or had such severe damage it probably should have been scrapped anyway. Even heavy milling can often be compensated for by a slight adjustment of timing. i.e. If you're not experiencing heavy ping, inability to adjust the FI, or major changes in driveability, it's insignificant.

Take out the stop watch, and check your 0-55 times. If you dropped from 7 minutes to 6:47, smile -- you got a bonus. But I still wouldn't challange Matt Kenseth to a 500-miler. http://www.westfalia.org/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[TE.HORNTOAD]

Up date from 79 westy with compresson increase from 135 to 165 after heads were resurfaced. I went back and did another compresson check after running about 60 miles and did this oe with engine warm and compression was 135 on three cylinders and 145 on #3. the first compression check was cold after reasembly so the differnce in compression test pressure has to be due to hot verses cold engine. I didn't know there would be so much difference. Engine runs fine pulls good so I am going to asume everything isok and drive it but will do another compression check at 500 miles when I change the oil. I wish to think you for your effort in researching my problem and Ideeply apreciate your comments after conslting with your friends. Seemes I jumped to conclusions about too much machinning on heads and I am just glad Ididn't disclose the machine shop that did the work so no harm has come. I have kearned simething also. Again thinks for your help and imput..

Ray

Ray McFall

[jake_beaulieu]

1982 air cooled Westy, remanufactured engine with 20,000 miles

Many posts back (June 13 and March 18) I wrote in about a squeak that was coming from my motor. I discovered that one of the lower head nuts had come loose. After torquing to specs the sqeak went away. After three months of driving the squeak has returned. I am thinking that I need to retorque all of the head nuts at a minimum, and maybe even replace the head gaskets. Here is my problem. So far I have not been able to get the cooling tin off so that I get at the upper head nuts. Does the motor need to be pulled before the upper cooling tin can be removed?
Thanks

jake
jake_beaulieu@yahoo.com

[Capt. Mike]

Theoretically, no, but in practice it may be the easiest. However, if you have a recurring head-bolt torque problem, your stud may be pulling out and it's probably time to pull the engine and look for a more serious cause. If you used the proper nuts & torque, they shouldn't back off.

[jake_beaulieu]

INTAKE MANIFOLD TO HEAD GASKET
1982 air cooled westy: 20,000 miles on remanufactured motor

I have discovered a vacuum leak in the intake manifold gasket. Can someone advise me as to the correct gasket configuration between the intake manifold and the head. Currently there is a thick black heat spacer sandwiched between two gaskets. Some sources have told me that this is the stock set up, and others have told me that only the heat spacer is necessary. My local VW dealer thinks that the heat spacer is all that is needed, but wasn't sure. Bentley only shows one gasket in their diagram. I want to get back to stock, but I am just not sure what that is.
Can anyone reccomend a sealant that should be used on the gasket?

Thanks,

jake
jake_beaulieu@yahoo.com

[This message was edited by Capt. Mike on October 17, 2003 at 02:42 PM.]

[jake_beaulieu]

INTAKE MANIFOLD GASKET/HEAD NUTS

An answer and a question.
First, to follow up on the post above. I purchased the intake manifold gasket from Bus Depot. Their product is the thick heat spacer with a standard gasket glued to both sides. So far the gasket is working fine in my bus. I also purchased a sealant for the gasket. It is a copper based aerosol that you spray on the gasket. It leaves a thin tacky film that helps to create a tight seal.

A question. I was checking out the Just Vee Dubs website and noticed that they only use nylon nuts on their cylinder heads. They claim that these never have to be retorqued, unlike the standard metal nuts. Anyone ever heard of this?
Jake

jake
jake_beaulieu@yahoo.com

[Capt. Mike]

There is a topic in TOOLS about lock nuts.

Nylock (lock nut with nylon insert) is fairly common in engine assembly and VW used them. Consult a factory parts manual to see if they were used in your application. They can NOT just be interchanged at will. In many applications, they would get too hot and the nylon inserts would melt such as exhaust manifolds. They are fairly common on cold and intake connections. Lock any lock nut, they have to be torqued appropriately and are a one-time use nut only.

[lexluthier72]

AVOIDING BROKEN HEAD STUDS WHEN REMOVING CAP NUT?

85 watercooled van 135,000 on broken odometer, no other info from PO.

I recently bought this vanagon (my fourth one over the years) as a project. needed a clutch and tranny. As it got colder here, the dreaded head leak started to manifest itself, leaking to the outside. I am thinking some stop leak to get me till spring, and then do the head gaskets. No running problems yet, and as i dont drive it much in the winter i dont forsee any happening. I considered re-torqueing the heads,(besides the obvious it being 20 degrees rite now), but noticed the cap nuts are pretty rusty,as are the injector bolts. also it has regular coolant in it...i know this is a long shot, but not knowing the history of the engine, how do i avoid breaking a stud? or is it 99% luck? I replaced the exhaust last summer so, those studs im not worried about, as they are all new. any advice would be great. p.s.- what happened to the section devoted to heads? I hope this is in the rite place.
-Erin

[Capt. Mike]

Stop leak is rarely the answer unless you plan on overhauling the whole engine next -- an 'leak' outlet that it can stop also means it's coating all the rest of the cooling system equally, reducing flow, and 'stopping' any other flows and passages of equal size.

It's 99% luck once they are allowed to freeze or rust. Thus the invention of anti-seize for connections like that. Since the PO didn't, all you can do is soak thoroughly over an extended period of time with a good breaker product like PB Blaster, lots of prayers and the willingness to do the job right if it doesn't work.

Retorqueing frozen/rusted nuts is pretty much a wasted effort if not cleared and backed off first since you don't know how much of the torque is consumed by the rust rather than tightening the fitting. If the rust is stronger than the stud connection -- which are you torqueing? And are you now overtorqueing the stud into the case which could cause far more severe damage?

[lexluthier72]

85 with rusty head cap nuts

Thx Capt Mike. Since it is not leaking bad, One drip from the right hand head, not making a wet spot on the ground, and only to the outside. (no running problems) I will take it easy and drive it the minimum. Thx for the info. I am not into an engine overhaul, so i will skip the
stop leak.

[lexluthier72]

Another clarifying question
Capt Mike,
How much does the regular coolant affect the studs and is there truth to the fact that it can cause stud corrosion? I know about the affect on the aluminum, but arent the studs hardend steel? Again not sure if this is in the right place, I read the "clearing the muddy waters" section and there wasnt much there. or did i miss something?
thx again,

[Capt. Mike]

Disimilar metals create a chemical reaction -- the principle under which electro-plating, battery current creation and marine sacrificial anode systems work under. Coolant is only nuetral when it is pure AND the additives are working. When either breaks down, so does the protection against corrossion. Phospates is some water and anti-freezes compound this. Typically, in an old engine, you've got 3 separate metals in the stud/coolant chain. Aluminum alloy of the case & heads, a hardened steel alloy of the studs and the usually generic steel of the cap nuts, often plated or galvenized. It's a chemical reaction waiting to happen -- all that holds it off is anti-sieze on the better rebuilders and the additives of the coolant. The additive topic is covered in detail in that "Clearing the muddy waters . . " topic.

[lexluthier72]

85 WESTY RUSTY HEAD CAP NUTS

Thx Capt Mike. You are a wealth of knowledge, and a great asset to this site. Thx again for all your info.
-Erin

[scomac]

83.5 Westy w/ an 85' tranny and motor from same donor rig-approx. 89,000 on donor engine, leaking coolant forecfully at high RPM's.
Took it to a shop, shop replaced and bled coolant sytem and test drove, no leaks.
Next day, leaking again compression shows:
1-155
2-135
3-120
4-95
What are my options for saving this beast?

[Capt. Mike]

Since compression range is unacceptable, do leak-down test to determine cause and overhaul as that test dictates. Insufficient information on leak, but the two together are recipe for failure.

[logus]

http://www.westfalia.org/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gifHi:
On my 1976 Westy, 2,000cc, dual Solex carb (it was FI), original distributor (vac. centr.advance, Ok). I´m having trouble timing it correctly. If I set it on 7.5º before TDC, the engine will stall y hesitate when I step on the gas or start to climb a hill. It semes to run Ok at hi RPMs. It runs better if I set it to about 20º advance. But it tends to get hot after long climbs. My questions: Could it be that the camshaft was not installed correctly according to the alignment marks? Is there a way to determining a misalignment without disassembling the engine?

Thank You
Miguel Angel

[Capt. Mike]

The only correct way to check cam installation is with the case opened but you can check that the sequence is correct and close by using a cylinder TDC gauge and comparing that with the valve operations. A TDC gauge is basically a housing that screws into the spark plug hole and uses a run-out gauge so that you can determine TDC exactly.

Since the setting of the cam is so simple, it's not all that likely -- it would take a pretty bad mechanic. Your sympoms point more likely to the carbs and backwards conversion from FI, which is not covered in this forum.

[vw-traveller]

Removing heads without removing the engine
I have a 1979 CA Westy.
I put new heads, pistons and cylinders on about 60.000 miles ago, and now I have a mysterious loss of power that comes and goes. I have checked out everything electrical on FI, everything s is fine (Replaced o2 and head temp. sensor) The compression test fluctuates though. So I'm thinking about having a valve job done, maybe new rings (still have to do a wet compression test).
I have heard of people taking of the heads without removing the engine. Since I have no garage currently (only a parking spot) I would prefer to just remove the heads. Any tips on how to do this? Also can I pull of the cylinders too, without removing the engine?
thanks for all advice

[vw-traveller]

Okay
the mysterious loss of power is solved. I had bad compession on cylinder no. III. Got some of that "restores compression" oil additive, put a few drops directly into the cylinder, the rest into the oil, and I'm all powerfull agian since then.
If someone still has info how to remove heads on the pancake engine, without taking out the engine....it would be greatly appreciated

[Capt. Mike]

I hate to belabor the point, but why would you want to do a head job with the engine in the car even if you could? At least on a T2 where the engine removal is so easy. What you save in time by not R&R-ing the engine is eaten right back up with the extra time and trouble of trying to do it in the vehicle and you sacrifice the ability to do all of the other things common at that mileage, like checking clutch, seals, etc. ("Engine Replacement associated tasks" topic this forum.) 60,000 on this engine alone should justify an R&R to do the job right and check out all the other things associated or possible with the task. For example, non-hyraulic (cable) clutches are usually well past the point where remaining clutch life can justify a 2nd R&R of the engine or tranny.

[hyro]

I'm not sure if I'm posting this correctly but here goes. I have a 1990 Westy with 6,000 on a rebuilt engine and 145,000 total miles. I replaced both head gaskets and many other components including water pump,rings,connecting rods and bearings.I re-installed heads after a local shop went through the heads.I enjoyed 6,000 miles but soon discovered a cracked head on the left side. I was in the process of re-installing the head when the #5 head bolt snapped near the base of the water jacket deep inside the water jacket housing. There is still 1-2" of stub left. I did the re-build in the van and didn't find it too bad. What are some sujestions for removing studs, and can it be done in vehicle? Obviously both pistons will have to come out. Also, can the metal head rings and head gasket be re-used if the engine was never run? Bummmmed in Boise.

[judlandis]

Re: the broken stud: my '89 had this happen last month. My go-to guy here was able to remove it with the engine in-vehicle. He used a Snap-on stud puller in combination with a Snap-on dowel pin puller, and slowly worked it out. He said it took over an hour to get it out, but that's easier than pulling the engine, eh? E-mail me off-site if you want the guy's phone number. He's willing to tell you details that I don't know about. Good luck.

[Capt. Mike]

NO! Never reuse a gasket, especially one subject to the compression demands of cylinders & heads.

[Capt. Mike]

Transferred to consolidate same topic.

draggers Member posted January 12, 2005 09:35 AM

I have 1977 Kombi with a 1.6 ltr aircooled, 88.5mm single carb engine.

Almost all the literature, Idiots (genius) guide, Bentley manuals, suggest tuning tappets when the engine is stone cold.

Many of the VW enthusiasts here in New Zealand have suggested I adjust the tappets when the engine is at normal operating temperate i.e. after running it for about 30-40 mins.

This kind of makes sense to me as engine temperature will change the behaviour, tolerances (length??), and dimensions? Of my oldish and possibly dissimilar Valves? Seats? and valve train.?? ( I think the previous owner made the engine from a spare part collection! he didn’t expect it to last but it has!!)

Will tuning valve clearances/tappets at operating temp ensure I get the valve clearance right?? Under the normal operating conditions of the engine? As I assume? Or are there other factors I am unknowingly missing?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Capt. Mike]

The factory knew what they were doing when they recommended cold clearance. Valves that are a little clattery from too much clearance do NOT do damage; valves that are too tight do -- enough to ruin an engine.

The specs have taken into consideration temperature changes and the expansion/contraction the valve train will undergo. Thus it may APPROACH zero free-play when hot, but have a cushion. That cold free play will not leave a valve partially open when hot. There is no reason to adjust hot -- besides not burning your hands, any teeny changes in theoretical performace are just that, theoretical. Nothing you'll be able to measure. But longer valvem, seat and engine life will be.

[jordiro]

I have a 1985 1.9 Westy and saw your thread regarding a differant torquevalue for the heads. I have done a compression check and found cyl's 3&4 erratic (100/130#) depending on how many times I checked it. #1&2 were a steady 145#. I do not have an external leak,but I do have the bubbles in the expansion tank and rapid blinking lite with guage showing overheating. I have bought a nw gasket set ,but saw your thread about retorqing. I do have the manual. What is the new retorqing amout please as I would like to try that first. thanks ron

[Capt. Mike]

Sorry I missed this earlier. The correct torque for the Cap nut holding the cylinder heads is 50 Nm (37 ft-lb.) This is given in the Bentley 15.21 on later editions. This is one of the reasons we strongly suggest you have the latest edition of the Bentley as it incorporates tech bulletins for older models through publication date. Otherwise you have to go to Dyment for the VW tech bulletins.

[ronwolffjr]

:-( 1976 Westy Valve Issue

Have a 1976 FI Westfalia, with a rebuilt 2.0 liter engine from CB performance. The motor was purchased about 5 years ago, and has about 6,500 miles on it.

Since that time, I have ensured the oil was changed every season, valves have been adjusted, points, cap, rotor, timing have been done yearly as a matter of caution.

Issue:

Recently I drove the Westy to interior North Carolina (about a 12 hour trip) straight through. I drove her easy, occasionally hitting 75, but slowing down at that point. About 11 hours into the trip, it ran very choppy accelerating, but when at speed, ran flawlessly.

Once I arrived, I noticed that the points were burned, so I replaced the points, cap, rotor, condensor, and statically timed it, according to the Bently manual. I noticed that #3 intake valve was tight. I backed the adjuster off, and hit the desired .006 adjustment with no problem.

After which, I drove it up the blue ridge parkway, and into the smokey mountains with no problems. The drive home took about 12 hours, again - straight through, with perfect performance, no shuttering this time.

Upon arriving home, and when engine was cool, I checked #3 intake valve again and it was tight. Still have a good amount of room, so I adjusted it again back to .006.

(note, each time I checked the valve, there was no play at all)

I am dreading the obvious, that the valve seat is recessing in the head, or the valve is stretching. However, when I compare the exhaust and intake valves on #3 one does not look more extended than the other, nor do the adjusting screws seem backed out further than the other.

Again, the engine has 6K miles on it, and is totally bumming me out. I am planning to go to a Westfalia camp-out this weekend (about 2 hours) and wonder if I should take it on the trip? (and check the valves again upon cool-down/arrival)

1) Any suggestions?

2) Is there such a thing as the valve 'settling' and possibly holding it's own after more driving?

3) Can I take it on this short stint, or is the risk so high that the valve is going to go on me?

Any thougts would be greatly appreciated. This royally stinks!

Thanks.

[Capt. Mike]

Wish you'd had time to stop by for a cool 'un while you were in NC and some Westy talk.

A valve that was not properly lapped and seated when the head was built/rebuilt could settle in 'some.' I'd think two .006" adjustments has to be the limit.

You're asking for an explanation that something is "growing". Cam lobes, lifter, pushrod can't. The tappet and shaft, if wearing, would loosen the valve. The only place to change is the valve distorting at the edge or valve seating deeper into the head. I know the sinking feeling but if this last adjustment doesn't hold, pull the head. (And be thankful it's an air-cooled. A seat or valve that didn't get hardened defect? Or a seat that didn't get bottomed out?

[icarus]

Well, it's finaly happened to me. We were about to embark on another transcontinetal trip. I took my 86 syncro to my guy for a once over, only watch item was the water pump/alt belt. A couple of quick (200 mile each)trips later, one day before departure I changed the belt.

What's this coolant smell, oh a drip. Run the engine for a bit and I get that sinking feeling inside. A bit more investigation and I find that the right side head gasket has let go. 142,840 hard miles. My engine has never been apart. I guess I am now going to have to figure out what to do, reubuild, buy a rebuilt, just do the head, both heads? I know all the answers but I just can't decide what right for me.

Change of plans, cram everything and the dog into the Subaru. Oh joy! Hot weather crossing and no fridge or stove. Back to truckstop fare.

I guess that I have gloated too long about my waterboxer being flawless. (It did have the good grace to fail BEFORE I was 1000 miles from home)

Out of luck
Icarus

[icarus]

A interesting post script to the above post:

After returning home after about 8 weeks, I was going to pull the car out of the garage to do some other work. The first thing I noticed was that there was NO sign of dripping on the floor over that time. Starting the car, letting it run outside for a while, the coolant tanks were normal and there was no sign/smell of coolant anywhere! I drove the car a 100 miles today and there is still no sign of any leak. Now I am on the horns of a dilema! Do I repair the car or do I let sleeping dogs lie? Of course my concern is, is it going to fail going forward or was I crying wolf?

Icarus

[JPennington]

I have an '86 Joker, European spec, 2.1 DJ series engine, 205,000 km - which I have owned since new.
I had to replace the rocker box covers (aka valve covers) recently as they had rusted through. The wire bail one one side was also corroded and has sheared off leaving about 2 mm sticking out of the head.
Does anyone have a bright idea on how to remove the stump? Or preferably do you know if the bolt-on aluminium covers, as used on air-cooled beetles, will fit on a wasserboxer head?

[icarus]

If memory serves, the bails are just held in by spring tension. If the stub is stuck, I would suggest some penetrating oil, and perhaps a bit of heat. Clamp a vice grip on the stub and twist it back and forth. It seems to me that it should pull right out.

Good luck,

Icarus

[Ref: Bentley 15.21 or parts diagram 5-05.]

[JPennington]

Just to update on my rusted rocker cover problem. There wasn't enough of the wire bail remaining to get a grip on. I tried using a dremel to grind the head away a bit, but with no success.
The final solution was to buy a bolt-on rocker cover kit (as sold for for Beetles, etc.). With a slightly longer bolt than supplied in the kit it fits fine. Also the cover is aluminum so I shouldn't ever need to replace it again. And a final plus, the cost of the kit was half the price of standard steel covers from V.A.G.

jp

[jerepowers]

I had kind of weird problem. I doubt it is common, but to check it is so easy I wanted to let people know about it.

The valve adjuster locknut on the #2 intake valve got loose, backed off until it fell off and the push rod then fell out of it's spot. The result was a loss of power and an oil leak at the #2 exhaust joint.

The mechanic at EK Auto Imports in Winnipeg (see other post) took an hour to figure out that's what it was and another hour to fish the nut out of a pushrod tube, reinstall it, adjust it and tighten all of the other nuts for good measure.

I was lucky the nut didn't get caught in the valve train and cause some serious damage.

This happened after my good shop (Good Carma) removed the heads for a head gasket replacement. They swear they never loosen these nuts on that kind of job, but they felt my pain and have offered some free hours of service to make up for what might have been their fault or at least their oversight.

Anyway, for the price of a pair of valve cover gaskets and about 20 minutes of time to check this, I am adding checking the tightness of these nuts to my 12,000 mile routine.

[jerepowers]

Just seeking a clarification on J Pennington's post.

Do the standard Beetle aluminum valve covers fit a 1.9 liter waterboxer head?

I'm curious because both mechanics who have looked at mine noticed signigicant rust on my valve covers and these auminum covers can be had for less than $30.

[Capt. Mike]

This is going to require a dealer check of Bug part numbers vs. yours. "Most" 1.9/2.1 waterboxers took the standard old Beetle V/C's P/N 113-101-475B. Type II boxers used a more square cover 021-101-471. The air-cooled Vanagons used the square Type II covers.

The cover & gasket for the old Beetle & waterboxers are easy to recognize from their soft curves at top corners. The Type II boxer have very distinct almost 90° corners.

The OE steel V/C's are pretty durable. At about $7 per for new OE VW (OE Vee Dub et. al.), I'm not sure I see the need for a flashier aluminum one. Most aluminum I've seen use ribs to maintain strength, but that makes them harder to clean and more likely to build up road splatter and oil/grease. I've bead-blasted and repainted OE a couple of times with excellent results.

[hotnblu]

I have an '87 Westy that I had the heads fixed on less than 15K miles ago. A reputable shop in Boulder, CO where I used to live cleaned, epoxied and ground the face of the heads to stop the pitting and the resultant leakage. The shop said that in their experience that method was about as effective as any of the other options, including fresh heads. Now 3 years and not that many miles later, I once again have puddles under the van. A local mechanic here in Missoula says that I have the same problem as before, the coolant is pitting the head faces. Since the shop that did the original work is now 1000 miles away I cannot take the van back to them to see. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Is it typical that this repair would fail with such a minimal amount of use?

[Capt. Mike]

Epoxied? You're kidding, right? Pitting on the compression and sealing surfaces can be milled, or by extremely competent experts, built up with weld and remachined, but super-glue is not an accepted engine repair. You've jury-rig fixed a symptom, not the cause.

You must also address the reason you are getting pitting. It doesn't just happen out of the blue. The fuel combustion process, condensation and contaminates can create acid, but proper maintenance, storage and oil changes with quality oil usually keep this under control. Low mileage, long idle periods & short trips aggrevate corrosion more than regular use that has the car completely warmed and all moisture driven out. I'd also address what coolant you are using. There are still a lot of corrosive-to-aluminum brands out there. Or in the the quality of the water it's mixed with.

What I'd really worry about is what corrossion you have elsewhere.

[staninco]

I was talking to a well-regarded local Vanagon mechanic about getting a pre-purchase inspection of a '90 (auto) with 68,000 miles. When I asked him about the odds of needing head/water jacket work due to corrosion, he said he would check for the presence of yellow sealant, which if present would suggest that we would be doing heads soon. He said if black sealant was evident, this would indicate that we would have a good shot at continuing for many miles without leaks (at least in this area).

I haven't heard of this yellow vs. black sealant factor before. Did all years of 2.1 Waterboxer ('86-'91) use this yellow sealant on the coolant gaskets?

Any opinions about this subject?

[Capt. Mike]

Color of sealant is pretty much a 'designer' thing, and not uniform amongst the manufacturers. See the <Suppliers><Misc. shop chemicals><Silicone seal> post for a brief description of silicone seal (which is not what's used by VW on heads), but should give you at least an understanding of the industry practices.

All of the old tales of early leaks, head gasket failures and head bolt failures had long been sorted out by the time the 2.1 liter Vanagons hit the market. So if it's an original 2.1, the sealant is not going to fail because it's yellow; if it's been overhauled, than the sealant is whatever the shop uses and color is no longer an indicator. IF -- and I've seen no evidence to support it -- there was a probelm with early sealants, those products would have been long superceded by VW, removed from the supply chain and there should be no way for it to get into a 2.1 liter.

[SkiingTaddy]

Hello my westy is only running on three cylinders. Tested the compression and the cylinder that isnt firing has a compression of 70. You can take out the spark plug to that cylinder and nothing changes. The spark plug was black when it was pulled. One of the other cylinders has a lower compression but the other two are at 120's i believe. Any advice on how i should attack this problem? the engine has 150,000 on it so i think it stil has some life left. Will running it on only three cylinders ruin the engine? I drove it home from salt lake to idaho on the freeway and it did ok (about got ran over once i hit the uphill though). also the previous owner told me that the cylinder that isnt firing fired for a minute when it was super cold this last winter.

[Capt. Mike]

Do a leak-down test (See <TOOLS> forum) to determine the cause of the compression leakage, then read the appropriate topic. Loss of compression can be from several reasons, not all of which are the head. Ignition failures have their own topic.

Per Bentley 2a: Minimum compression on any cyclinder is 116 psi so 120 psi is borderline. The max range between cylinders is 44 psi. So theoretically, you would be passable if all cylinders are 116-160 psi. Obviously, you're not so head job &/or overhaul is due. When considering "life left" also consider the consequential costs should you push it past limits and have a major failure such as a broken rod go or dropped valve. Although 150k is not a lot, it is for an engine that's been abused as this one appears to have been.

[dsmilne]

I have a 84 Westy with only 100,000 miles on it (160,000 KM).

Last summer Cylinder #3 had no compression. I used an engine flush in the oil and it got the cylinder working. I changed the oil and left it for the winter. I now have driven this season 500 miles and I am losing compression again.

It is hard to get parts now in Canada so am wondering if I should do a engine rebuild now which would last the rest of my life. Maybe import an engine from Boston Bob? or

Any thoughts.

Thanks Don in Calgary

[Capt. Mike]

I can only repeat the instructions one line above -- do a Leak-down test to find out WHERE you are losing compression. :rolleyes: Then address the problem as appropriate. With intermittent use as you describe, hydraulic lifters often begin to fail. They have their own topic in this forum.

[Capt. Mike]

ChrisR (http://www.westfalia.org/community/member.php?u=28127) http://www.westfalia.org/community/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif Junior Member

I purchased my 1974 Westy a few months back. Everything checked out from my inspection and I have driven the bus from Florida to Minnesota/back 3 times. On my most recent return trip to FL I began to lose power in the Tennessee mountains. By the time I got to Florida it was struggling over the larger bridges. It wasn't burning any oil but seemed to be running very rich. I did make it home however.

The next day I checked the plugs and they were full of soot and old. So I replaced them. I started the bus and it ran okay for less than 10 seconds and then started to foul out plugs. I pulled and cleaned the plugs, then re-installed. I also pulled the carburetors and the float needle on the left carb was gummed up. I believe this is what was loading it up with fuel and fouling out plugs.

The next morning I did a valve adjustment and found most to be near spec. I fired the engine and now she's blowing blue smoke. It does seem to be running smoother than before though!? I didn't replace valve cover gaskets. The engine is leaking oil from the left bank and it appears to be coming from the pushrod tube near left rear (#4) cyinder dripping down to the heat exchanger/valve cover gasket area. It never leaked there before. Could dirt or something have fallen in when changing plugs and done damage thus causing the leak?

I did a compression test and here's the numbers; Right front (1) 115psi, Right rear (2) 100psi, Left Front (3) 110psi, Left Rear (4) 90psi.

So does 90psi constitute a rebuild? Should I replace the pushrod tube seals and go from there? Any suggestions would be a great help.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/ebaye30/VW%20Camper/P6300047.jpg

[Capt. Mike]

Although 90 psi on #4 is just below specs of 100 psi, the spread of 25 psi is reasonable and the 90 psi by itself is not the cause of the performance or fouled plugs. In fact, it indicates you probably have an acceptable seal of rings and valves. Blue smoke usually indicated oil consumption. Did you do the test per Bentley, with full throttle? Many seem to miss or ignore that important practice which increases compression to a true reading. Run the leak-down test described above and elsewhere on the site (TOOLS>Compression tester . . .) to diagnose if you have a significant leak.

More than likely, your fouled plugs are caused by oil in large quantities. With the good seal consistent across all cylinders, head gasket is not the most logical but that leak-down test should confirm that. You may have had the valve stem seals go. The pushrod tube seals will cause external leaks but not contribute to leaks into the intake manifold. The fouling has to be coming from the intake side and carbs don't normally contribute to oil-fouling.

One other possibility is your crankcase ventilation system is clogged and forcing oil up past the rings. PCV is covered in the "Pollution equipment . . ." topic.

[wasp]

A friend has an 85 westy with 33,000 kms. Was in storage for a year. She got it out of storage, started right up and headed home. She got about 2 km and was going up a hill. She pushed the throtle it geared down and shortly there after quit. It has one cylinder with normal compression (rear right) no compression on front right and about 40 lbs each on both left cylinders. The one with normal compression had a bent lifter. I adjusted all lifters back to just loose and the compression is the same. Squirted oil in the cylinders and it did not change. No valves are stuck. I think it has a bent valve on every cylinder except the one that had a bent push rod. Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

http://www.westfalia.org/community/images/icons/icon1.gif bent push rod not lifter
sorry folks, the cyl with normal compression had a bent push rod not a lifter.

[Capt. Mike]

What are the results of the leak-down test recommended above? It tells where you are losing the compression.

:confused: How do you "bend" a lifter? It's a machined cylinder housed in a machined case bore. See Bentley §15.22-23. Do you mean a bent pushrod or bent rocker arm? The '85 has hydraulic lifters; your adjustment method is incorrect and will lead to further damage.

[wasp]

Hey Mike:
The edit pointed out it was a bent push rod not lifter. I know the valve setting is incorrect, any old time mechanic would recognize it as a test to see if the hydraulic lifters where not properly functioning and therefore holding valves slightly open during compression check. Adjusting to just loose, then rechecking compression eliminates a lifter problem. Squirting oil in the cylinder eliminates worn rings as the problem.

Was hoping someone had a similar experinece and therefore could offer some insight the "Bentley" might just not contain.

Thanks

[Capt. Mike]

I get hoarse saying it, "Do a leak-down test!" It will tell you where the leak is occuring. Some of the best mechanics no longer do compression tests -- the leak-down is more accurate, removes most variables and gives definitive answers. See TOOLS forum, "Leak down tester" topic.

[mike123]

HI, I HAVE PURCHASED A USA IMPORT 1976 WESTY 2.0. PLEASE ADVISE MY COMPRESSION IS APPROX100 psi ON ALL CYLINDERS, IS THIS OK IF NOT WHAT SHOULD IT BE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY LEAK-DOWN TEST ? HAVE NOT HEARD OF THIS EXPRESSION IN ENGLAND. MANY THANKS MIKE:):)

[Capt. Mike]

Compression testing and specs are given in the Bentley 9-5.1 (Guideline #2). See post #93 above :(; a leak-down tester & its use is described in the TOOLS forum, "Leak-down tester" topic on page 2. (Guideline #4)

[tracinglines]

We purchased a 1982 air cooled westy two years ago. We fixed it up a bit and took it on a 3 month road trip, nurturing it along the way and putting a substantial amount of money into it while on the road. During the last few weeks of the trip, it began to lose power and it was diagnosed to be running on 3 cylinders. We kept it running for a while longer by constantly changing out fuel filters, running injector cleaner through every other tank of gas, and changed out the plugs once (which were not as bad as I would have expected). At one point, we couldn't keep it going without taking it in to a shop and ended up paying $800 to just get it back up on its feet. The mechanic could not give an estimate on how much it would cost to fix. We have a regular mechanic here in San Diego, but we have not been able to get an estimate from him either. I would like to hear your ideas of what this problem could be caused by and how much it might cost to be fixed.

At this point, we cannot keep it and I am trying to figure out whether it would be more cost effective to donate it, sell it as is (barely running), or pay another year's registration, insurance, and storage to rebuild it at the local community college and sell it next year. I'm desperate for your thoughts!

Thanks a lot,
Dana

[lescebulas]

I have an 85’ Westy with a loud tap. I took a compression test and my #4 cylinder has zero compression. There’s also an exhaust leak on the driver side of the engine. I’m assuming I have a stuck exhaust valve. Someone told me I could just replace that head and be done with it. I’m thinking I need a rebuild. I’m kind of learning as I go here. Does anyone have some input here? Should one replace one head without the other. I have a youtube video with the noise. I'm sorry but the forum won't let me post the link, you can do a search on youtube for "Vanagon Engine Noise" and you should find it. Notice how the tap is more evident as the rpms back off. Thanks
Steve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETAWGBMAq-0

[tencars]

Hi Everyone,

I overheated my 2.2 (GoWesty) engine with AMC heads. The engine had only 40.000 miles on it. Sad story: Colorado step pass loud music and distracted by the sublime landscape when a water hose busted.

Anyways I replaced the blown head gasket. Compression is fine. Valves are adjusted. The engine was running fine until it got warm. Once it's warmed up, it sounds just like an engine that only runs on 3 cylinders or even just on one bank.

When I had the heads off, I didn't see any signs of damage or excessive wear on the heads. The only thing I noticed was a shimmering spot on one of the exhaust valves. Simmering in rainbow colors like a chrome header when it got hot the first time. Also, when I adjusted the valves. The exhaust valve on the first cylinder at some point suddenly clicked and seated itself. Sticky from overheating? I did't replace anything besides the gaskets.

When looking for any damage I was first more concerned about the cylinder sleeves. Both sleeves close to the flywheel were quite crusty around the area where the green rubber gasket was dematerialized from the heat. They looked like they got quite hot.

At this point I am a little lost. Obviously I am not the best mechanic, but to fix this problem means much to me. Do I need to have the valves replaced or seated? Can anybody give me an advise?

Thank you,

Carsten

[tencars]

Hi Everyone,

I overheated my 2.2 (GoWesty) engine with AMC heads. The engine had only 40.000 miles on it. Sad story: Colorado step pass loud music and distracted by the sublime landscape when a water hose busted.

Anyways I replaced the blown head gasket. Compression is fine. Valves are adjusted. The engine was running fine until it got warm. Once it's warmed up, it sounds just like an engine that only runs on 3 cylinders or even just on one bank.

When I had the heads off, I didn't see any signs of damage or excessive wear on the heads. The only thing I noticed was a shimmering spot on one of the exhaust valves. Simmering in rainbow colors like a chrome header when it got hot the first time. Also, when I adjusted the valves. The exhaust valve on the first cylinder at some point suddenly clicked and seated itself. Sticky from overheating? I did't replace anything besides the gaskets.

When looking for any damage I was first more concerned about the cylinder sleeves. Both sleeves close to the flywheel were quite crusty around the area where the green rubber gasket was dematerialized from the heat. They looked like they got quite hot.

At this point I am a little lost. Obviously I am not the best mechanic, but to fix this problem means much to me. Do I need to have the valves replaced or seated? Can anybody give me an advise?

Thank you,

Carsten

[ronwolffjr]

Upon arriving home, and when engine was cool, I checked #3 intake valve again and it was tight. Still have a good amount of room, so I adjusted it again back to .006.

(note, each time I checked the valve, there was no play at all)

I am dreading the obvious, that the valve seat is recessing in the head, or the valve is stretching. However, when I compare the exhaust and intake valves on #3 one does not look more extended than the other, nor do the adjusting screws seem backed out further than the other.

Again, the engine has 6K miles on it, and is totally bumming me out. I am planning to go to a Westfalia camp-out this weekend (about 2 hours) and wonder if I should take it on the trip? (and check the valves again upon cool-down/arrival)

...Commenting on my 2006 Post (LOL)

Well, the valve finally did not adjust anymore last year. Rather than risk the rest of the engine self destructing, I broke down and pulled the engine.

What I found out were that the heads CB Performance used in my rebuild were
a) not VW, although they told me they were.
b) already rebuilt several times as evidenced by the 'predetonation scars'.

Upon pulling the heads off I found the valve seat on #3 had come loose and clattered it's way through the head like a chisel, causing my valve to be progressively tighter.

I was had by this company!

Well, the good news is that I found a good set of rebuildable VW 2.0 Liter heads and sent them off to a reputable machine shop. Once I got them back, I installed them and the engine runs fine. Gosh knows how the bottom-end of the engine looks. But, I took the chance and put it back together.

Hopefully this info will help anyone else who is experiencing a progressively tighter valve.... this could be your problem.

Just don't let it go too long, or the valve will eventually cut loose.

Back on the road!!

[alan fryar]

I am replacing two cylinder head studs on a 2.1 liter, 1990 Westie. Both were extremely hard to remove, galled threads I suspect. I attempted to install a new stud into the case but I can't get it all the way in...Eighth of an inch short from being all the way. I feel like I should tap the hole but I don't want to screw up the bore. I will also say that the engine is in the vehicle as are the cylinders and pistons...no choice I'm afraid. Due to the location at the back of the water jacket by the #4cylinder and my lack of knowledge as to the hole I want to tap, i am scared to proceed any further without advice. Any Ideas? I have searched the posts but haven't seen anything relevant to my situation.

[Capt. Mike]

Are you 101% sure you haven't broken the stud and left a thread or two in there? If not, then you can use a bottoming tap to dress the threads all the way to the bottom so you can install the new studs. Final thought, have you measured the new studs to be sure they are the correct length? Mistakes happen in the parts department and labeling. When I look at the parts fiche, I see several lengths were used on each engine, so be sure you have the right studs in the right positions.

[alan fryar]

Thanks Capt. Mike..after a little dressing with the bottom tap it went right in! I decided the replace one on the other side of the engine after closer inspection. I promptly snapped it off with hardly any effort...a bomb waiting to explode! It is proving more difficult to break free. I am using a socket style extractor tool with no results yet. I soak it with PB Blaster every couple of hours and hope for the best in the AM. Heat has been recommended, but that scares me! Another idea was to weld a nut to the end of the stud and back it out like any other bolt. Sounds doable if all else fails...but I'm praying that it breaks free tomorrow AM. What do you think?

[Capt. Mike]

See the "Stud puller . . ." topic in theTOOLS forum, Guideline 4. Not pulling the engine for this complex & delicate of a job is doing things the hard way and becomes high-risk of further damage.

[alan fryar]

Hey Capt. Mike...Went ahead and pulled the engine to properly address the stud removal. I have installed a spare engine that I had and should be firing it off tomorrow morning! Thanks for the help! By the way... I too am a retired Captain of 34 years!